[UPHPU] Dealing with the low PHP salary problem

[John Anderson]

<rant>

Any 'management' that makes these sort of broad claims will never find great programmers 
nor take part in anything of consequence. Its this sort of closed-mindedness that we can 
easily stay away from without *any* worry for our careers as PHP developers.

As far as PHP5 and OOP programming goes: I think that perhaps PHP was a little behind the 
ball in getting in gear with object oriented programming, but this says nothing (IMHO) to me 
about the language's power, security, or extensibility. I personally really enjoy the power of 
OOP, but Object-oriented programming can be overused just like procedural programming 
can. I've worked on other projects where *simple* coding solutions have been wrapped in 
multiple objects in an effort to 'comply with the framework' or 'maintain the model.' 
Objectitis is just as dangerous as spaghetti code or magic numbers to me.

It can be shown that PHP is making ground - and fast. http://www.php.net/usage.php shows 
constant progress. Its not an inferior language. The development cycle is obviously quick (I 
decided not to give JSP a try just because I read that you have to restart the server at every 
change...), and it can be argued that its quicker than most at execution time as well.

Saying that PHP is a good language for beginners is like saying the piano is a good 
instrument for beginners. Both definitely have an easy beginners interface, but I think both 
can take years to master. PHP is more flexible: why is that a bad thing? I think its a plus that 
the novice can pick up on some simple functionality quickly. Those HS grads who read a PHP 
tut on the web pose no threat - they are the PHP community of the future. The common 
objectitis and verbosity of Java creates too steep a learning curve, and its part of why PHP has 
such a strong user community.

I am always a little confused when IT folks express a disdain for mySQL in 'enterprise' 
situations. Its not a petty thing for Slashdot to be using mySQL - they have coined the phrase 
Slashdotted to mean a complete overload of a site... when Slashdot (and its respective mySQL 
db) keeps up with getting 'Slashdotted' hourly. To say that MSSQL and Oracle (which cost big, 
big bucks) are better fits is confusing. Another free and super-flexible software product that 
somehow gets a bad rap from so-called 'enterprise software.' Bah. You can pay the extra 
thousands of dollars for the extra features, but mySQL works near-perfect for even the 
largest (Slashdot and Yahoo! I know I know) operations. Just my thoughts.

>BTW, I know PHP programmers making as much or more than me.  So, the
>high paying jobs are out there, but you need more skills than just
>being able to bang out a web page

I assume that by 'bang out a web page' skills, you mean system and server adminstration, 
systems integration, programming, graphic design, information design and usability? It's no 
small task - seems like if anything, software development that has its fingers in multiple bit 
buckets on multiple systems dealing with many users coming from different networks and 
platforms is alot harder than most other conventional software gigs.

</rant>

;o)

--J



---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Grant Shipley <gshipley at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:29:34 -0600

>I thought I would quickly respond to this.  (I originally sent this to
>the first poster not realizing reply does not send to the list)
>
>Disclaimer:  I am a Java developer, and have been for five years now.
>I just recently joined this list because I currently have a side
>project that we are using PHP for.
>
>>From am outsider perspective, the majority of companies that employ
>PHP programmers are small companies.  This is not where the higher
>salaries are made.  Small companies are barely making ends meet as it
>is.
>
>Most people think of PHP programmers as people right out of high
>school who want to learn how to program.  They grab a book and start
>banging out code because its so easy to do and its not object
>oriented. (I know you can do classes but its not really object
>oriented).  I think PHP is a great language to start with because of
>this.  You don't need to understand Object Oriented Design like you do
>with Java before you write your first line of code and hence you can
>get started quicker.
>
>PHP is not taught in most colleges and universities and therefore
>people equate PHP programmers as people with little or no college
>experience.  Most Java programmers have a Computer Science degree.
>This DOES NOT suggest that I think people with degrees are better
>coders, because I don't really think it matters as much as experience.
>But thats the perception of management.
>
>Another poster stated some of this will change when PHP5 is released.
>I am going to play devils advocate and say that it will not affect
>anything.  PHP5 is introducing features that other languages have had
>for years and years.  For instance, abstract classes, exception
>handling, etc. etc.  Why would a manager trust a language just now
>introducing these features when they can use .NET or Java that has
>been proven time and again in a enterprise environment.
>
>Another reason is that PHP is so closely tied to mysql.  Mysql is a
>great database but its just not used in the enterprise (yahoo,
>slashdot, I know I know).  I know that PHP talks fine with oracle but
>most PHP programmers have little or no experience with this.  Most
>java developers use Oracle or MSSQL on a daily basis because they are
>working on big systems that mysql is not a correct fit for.
>
>All that being said, PHP is a great language for getting websites up
>VERY FAST.  But those are some of the reasons I think PHP programmers
>get paid less that java developers.
>
>BTW, I know PHP programmers making as much or more than me.  So, the
>high paying jobs are out there, but you need more skills than just
>being able to bang out a web page.
>
>
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